Text:
I consent to Plex to: (i) sell certain personal information (hashed emails, advertising identifiers) to third-parties for advertising and marketing purposes; and (ii) store and/or access certain personal information (advertising identifiers, IP address, content being watched) on my device(s) and share that information with Plex’s advertising partners. This data is used to deliver personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, audience insights and product development. Your consent applies to all devices on which you have Plex installed. You can withdraw your consent at any time in Account Settings or using this page.
Soure: https://www.plex.tv/vendors/ (Might have to clear cache)
Can also read about the changes here: https://www.plex.tv/about/privacy-legal/
I don’t know why everyone in the selfhosting community still even mentions Plex or uses it.
It’s closed source, not free; Jellyfin is a no brainer yet people still go to Plex??
The sunken cost of buying a plexpass on sale for 39 dollars 15 years ago.
I bought a Plex pass for 90 or something. I officially dropped Plex about 4 months ago now. For 90 bucks I got something like 8 years out of it. I’ll call that a win, I don’t feel like I wasted my money, I don’t feel like I overpayed. Just moving on now.
Yeah great perspective. I think we all need to have this perspective more as many tech companies will randomly change their minds on their products.
Kind of like how I got free photo backup on my first two pixels. It was a nice feature, I’m sad it’s gone, but it’s fine.
Did they really kill off free photo backup? That’s so incredibly shitty, they even compressed them!
Did they really kill off free photo backup? That’s so incredibly shitty, they even compressed them!
Yeah it was over after pixel 3 or a little before iirc! Although to me it was obvious they would eventually kill it off because that’s soooo much storage. It was just a trick to get people bought into Google photos (which is a great service but much too expensive for me and now basically totally replaced by Immich)
damn I’ve been out of the loop on that one for a while! Agreed, I set up Immich and it’s pretty much a drop-in replacement now
How has immich been compared to photoprism? My issue with immich is that new releases kept breaking things. Has it finally stabilized? Lts are super important to me as I don’t want to spend every weekend reconfiguring services for my family.
Forgot to mention- can’t compare to photo prism as I’ve never used it!
I’m new to self hosting and I’ve only used it for about a month. During the last month all updates have been stable for me! But according to their roadmap they plan to do their official “stable” release a little later this year, so you could wait until then?
Also I’m running it in docker so that might help
Same.
Plex is easier to run on older NAS systems, but yeah - that was me :) but i switched to jellyfin, finally
I stuck with Emby for way too long for this reason. I spent $50 in 2017. Gotta get my money’s worth no matter how broken their app was.
Hence the term “sunk cost fallacy”.
Jellyfin is hardly a no-brainer. I set it up out of curiosity a few weeks ago and my first question was how do I give access to my friends and family. So I searched, and all of the results were talking about setting up a VPN or a reverse proxy or whatever. Man, I just want to tell my mom “install this app on your tv and log in”, which is exactly what Plex does.
I get that Plex is enshittifying, but pretending Jellyfin is a drop-in replacement is delusional.
Since you need to self-host Jellyfin, then you are responsible for making the service public.
Jellyfin is a no-brainer. Publishing services on the Internet is complex.
Not if you use plex, which is the entire draw
Yeah, but then you’re not self-hosting, you’re paying or using their free services to manage that for you.
You’re hosting the media still. It’s basically a hybrid between getting Netflix and running Jellyfin. They handle the delivery, you handle the media.
Yup. And letting them collect data on what goes through their service is the cost.
Yes. No one is debating that. The point is “why would you ever use plex?” is a simple answer: you can easily and quickly watch your pirated shit on all your devices with basically no technical knowledge at all. Yes people are willing to compromise for that, many people simply do not give a shit either way. But this insistence that people here “can’t possibly get why anyone would use Plex” is just insane to me.
Very few people care. So no, for most it is not really a no brainer. It’s more effort and work pretty much everywhere. Try to use jellyfin on the Xbox client and tell me that isn’t trash.
Happens with most services.
I’m sure that one boutique website you shopped on had buried in the T&C that they can sell your data.
If they adhered to somewhat modern security principles for their Backend I wouldn’t mind hosting it behind a reverse proxy. But since large parts of the API is unauthorized and unprotected, I wont.
And I do not plan on supporting family and friends in setting up vpns on all of their devices
What are the worries behind it? Last time someone was worried about the security it was about knowing filenames of the stuff you host by brute forcing iirc
Knowing (guessing) the file path allows them to access and stream the content. Meaning worst case scenario… Sony (the people known for putting malicious stuff on CDs) can probe your server, and prove the content is there because your server will return the movie file itself.
The issue is their approach to security. I don’t trust them to properly secure their software, since they have proven to prefer client compatibility over security.
Understandable. I don’t worry that much myself since I haven’t heard anything bad happening yet. And with ro rights to media, potential damage at least should be pretty limited.
Depends entirely on where you live I would think.
You’re in a post about people outraged about an opt-in anonymous data sharing option on Plex, and you’re not worried about known security issues because you haven’t heard of anything bad happening yet?
Make it make sense.
I’m not sure how a service selling my data and services having potential security issues are the same. Two different issues imo
I don’t care if they probe for my media considering I block 99% of the world. Yes blah blah they could get around it. If someone really wants to see what I have on my media server that bad, I don’t think I’d be able to stop them anyway.
Seconded it’s not a no-brainer. I spent days trying to get it set up with Docker on two different computers and three different distros. It wouldn’t install, if it did install it had errors, if it would even open at all with anything other than a black screen. Hours trying to search how to fix it. I gave up and installed it as a standalone app on a common distro. Not as convenient, but FML it finally worked. Really felt like I wasted my time. Personally, this is the exact bullshit linux fanatics completely ignore when they insist on how great linux is vs whatever. I’ve got a shitload of patience, willpower and modest skill to try to get something like this working, but 99% of the population doesn’t. That’s why linux will stay on the back burner. And if it ever becomes just as easy as Windows…guess what? You’ll have many of the same problem as Windows.
I’ve definitely pulled my hair out with docker too. Banged my head against the wall for a couple days before finally giving up.
I’m not ridiculously tech savvy, but I’ve tinkered with Linux since I was young, daily drive it on my laptop. I’m not afraid of the command line, and I’m smart enough to search for help and guides when I need it.
But something about docker just breaks my brain. Maybe I’m too old and there’s too much abstract thought required, I don’t know. But I can’t figure it out.
IMO it was my hardware on the first tries. Not sure what your problem was, but after digging around I found something that loosely indicated that my hardware was too old or something - it didn’t play well with the onboard graphics or similar. But the second hardware set I tried it on was far newer, and after all the installation was complete I got a black screen. Every time. No matter which guide I used, no matter what dependencies I thought might be missing or whatever I tried to get it working. A hair pulling experience indeed.
You struggled to set up Jellyfin with docker?
Damn
I am a devops engineer and application architect who spends their entire day developing automated docker deployments for custom applications from scratch and I manage all our reverse proxies and TLS termination and certificates.
5 years ago, I wouldn’t have been able to tell you what a docker container really was. Thankfully migrating legacy apps to docker on Linux hosts is my full time job and it has allowed me to become proficient enough in a fairly short amount of time.
We all have to start somewhere and shitting on someone for not knowing something now will dissuade them from ever learning it and potentially remove a future contributor to the open source tech stack before they ever even get started.
If they said they had trouble understanding docker it would’ve been clearer, but they said Jellyfin was the issue.
Don’t be smug.
I’ll take any chance, even one involving docker
I mean, if I didn’t know better, I’d start to suspect that the large multimedia corporations building walled gardens of apps in closed Smart TV ecosystems don’t really want you to be able to easily tell your mom how to watch shit for free. I mean they’ll let you, if you really insist on having that app available, but someone will have to pay THEM money instead first (and probably let them spy on you). That’s their racket.
The reason Plex can do it is because they do make money, doing shitty stuff like this to their users, so they can use that money to open these doors into SmartTV-land. The root of the problem is that your SmartTV itself (and your mom’s) is a locked down proprietary piece of shit, designed exclusively for shoving all proprietary content these media companies develop down your throat, and there are few convenient workarounds that are available to us, because of course they make workarounds as inconvenient as possible.
Unless you’re willing to ditch everything proprietary and insist on open technology for everything, which is hard on its own, you’re going to end up with a janky mix of proprietary and open systems that always require some compromises, because the proprietary stuff forces us to compromise. It’s literally a “this is why we can’t have nice things” situation.
Or… You know… Jellyfin could make it so I don’t have to setup elaborate VPN schemes and have every user install that on every one of their devices. For example they could fix their security issues to make it safer to expose JF through a reverse proxy, bug they refuse to not break client compatibility
Yes, but that person has to create an account. Everyone has to create an account. With Plex. Some people I know immediately say no, others are annoyed that plex would try and shake them down for money.
If you configure Jellyfin, all that goes away. THEN they can simply download the app and login.
I make the account for them. Then I log in as them and set it up so they only see my server. Then I send them the credentials and have them login
I’m not a hardcore tech person and this is exactly the issue for me as well.
I want to be able to stream my music collection when I’m away from home without having to get an associate’s degree in networking.
Tailscale makes this easy if you are the only user.
I’ll look into Tailscale then. I’m guessing there’s something funky about adding additional users. I would eventually like to add one or two other people.
I think the free tier lets you have three users. I ended up going with headscale so that could be wrong.
It’s not that hard but they will have to make accounts and set the correct exit node or use the weird magic dns. Takes some hand-holding and depends on how you set things up.
Easy if the device you’re trying to listen on has a tailscale app and a JellyFin app, which is unlikely unless you’re using your phone or a tablet/pc.
You saying you wouldn’t have those things away from home? Or a firestick.
No, I don’t generally carry Firesticks around with me.
So assuming you are traveling, what do you bring with you if it isn’t a mobile streaming device, a laptop, or a mobile device that you are going to stream to?
Jellyfin is a fully self hosted drop in. That means it’s up to the server operator to handle everything. You would still tell your mom to just install the Jellyfin app on her TV with the one additional step in your server address which you would tell her.
But yes, you as the operator have to do some extra things like implementating a reverse proxy and if hosting out of your home make necessary network configuration changes to accommodate this access.
You as server operator also have to check what device your mom has and point her to what app download, because Jellyfin doesn’t have an app for everything
True though that’s less server operator and more “just being helpful to your mom”. That said it seems nowadays that a Jellyfin app is available on most devices/ecosystems (or maybe I just don’t have experience with enough devices to have an accurate idea).
So I told people download app enter this url and login. I even send out an email inviting them so they can click the link and create their own username and password. Then if they forget their password they can ask for a reset link.
The best thing is, you can’t use a reverse proxy with it, it doesn’t even support it.
Odd, since my Jellyfin sits behind a reverse proxy.
Oh, right, it was basic auth (behind a reverse proxy, or even in general) that Jellyfin doesn’t support and isn’t planned to support IIRC.
Here is a GitHub issue where they said they don’t plan on supporting it: https://github.com/jellyfin/jellyfin-android/issues/123
I don’t even know what a reverse proxy is
There is one thing I want from jellyfin. It is to be able to login from their Android app to watch or set something to record without jumping through a bunch of hoops.
This is why I use Yunohost. It makes all of that just a “click buttons” affair. Then you can tell your Mom the same thing. Only the domain is yours so Jellyfin can’t hold it over your head.
Does it work on a smart tv or roku or whatever?
Yeah they have apps on all the platforms.
All of these, plus more unofficial ones: https://jellyfin.org/docs/general/installation/
For me it’s PlexAmp and the few tech-illiterate friends I have who use my server for video streaming. 99% of the time, I just watch movies on my desktop with VLC player but I’ve yet to find a self-hosting music player half as good as PlexAmp
Yeah, the sad reality is that Plex’s setup experience is much smoother. And when you’re trying to convert people, the single largest obstacle is often social inertia. So lowering the barriers to entry is extremely important. My mother-in-law would need to sideload the Jellyfin app onto her TV, but Plex is available right on its app store.
Luckily, you can run both side by side. Jellyfin for me and my more tech-literate friends, Plex for those who don’t know/don’t care to learn.
I have read many people say this, but I don’t understand what they mean by it. When I set up Jellyfin, it was a very simple process.
Simplicity is relative to each person’s abilities and the tool in question.
Apparently all your friends and family are comfortable with hostnames and ip addresses. Not everyone’s are. Also, not everyone wants to buy a static ip or setup a dynamic dns service or similar. Plex is definitely simpler. I have used both.
I understand this but we have to realize that what makes Plex simpler is the fact that they are a network intermediary that does what it wants with your home networks; it’s like insisting that NordVPN is better than Mullvad
IMHO the only solution will be improving wireguard guis and stuff, Jellyfin is not lacking.
I haven’t used Plex, so I’m not exactly sure what it’s doing, but I’m guessing it presents you some sort of search to find the server? Isn’t that pretty much the same as a domain name, just w/ a search bar instead of a URL bar? If your domain is easy to remember, I guess I don’t see an issue. I’ve also heard you can connect to multiple servers, so maybe that’s what people are talking about.
Regardless, I think Jellyfin could handle both. Get some community-funded STUN relay servers to handle discovery and implement a way (if it doesn’t already) to have your client connect to multiple servers. There should also be a way to copy all the configs from one client to another (say, a QR code or UUID, settings copied over the same STUN server).
My main issue is that this could open up servers to more potential attack vectors, and Jellyfin already has some security weaknesses. But other than that, I’d be happy to help implement this sort of thing, a STUN server can be run on as little as a $5 VPS.
I haven’t used Plex in a decade and I use Jellyfin, what you’re describing sounds perfect. I read up a bit on STUN servers and it’s what Syncthing uses, but they also mantain discovery and relay servers (and anyone can host one and can be added to the public list). Security wise they seem to be doing fine?(I’m not an expert, just an informed user)
Idk what combo Jellyfin would benefit the most from; are relay servers needed? The workload is similar but probably higher on average, people stream more often than they do backups
No, Plex lets you invite friends to your server with a link they can click and sign up. Then they can type a code into their TV app or login to a browser and watch basically like a standard streaming setup they already probably have used.
Jellyfin is less familiar. Arguably not much more difficult but people aren’t always rational. The unfamiliar is often intimidating.
Can’t you just send your link to them over SMS, IM, or email? Is the main difference that you can do this from the UI?
I guess entering a code on the TV is pretty cool though. Maybe I’ll poke around in the Jellyfin community to see what the interest is in such a feature, because it should be possible w/ minimal hosting costs.
I wonder if having a “sign in” page within jellyfin that just fronts a wireguard configuration panel, saves the creds, and automatically connects and routes app traffic over the vpn iface is a remotely viable idea.
That sounds good to me, we use wireguard in the family when out and about to access my homeserver, but I’d love if Jellyfin could create ad-hoc tunnels, it’d make us feel safe enough sharing our libraries with friends, perhaps it will convince many Plex users too. What are funkwhale users doing to share their music for example?
The other commenter wrote about STUN servers (IP), I’ve seen that Syncthing uses them as well, together with discovery and relay servers. Would wireguard be used at any of this stages or standalone? Personally I have no idea, I’m just an observant user 😅
That depends on if someone wants it enough to make it happen.
Off topic, but what? Is Nord doing wacky shit with network settings?
I’m not a security expert but my guts (and the many things I read about this stuff over many years) tell me that cheap highly marketed VPNs like Nord seek the less informed users that sign up because half of their favorite youtubers sent them there, the default M.O. is install the (proprietary) app. It might be possible to use them safely but it’s not what’s happening to 99% of the customers.
They operate in grey legal areas, there are many scandals over the years, they write in their TOS that they can change the terms themselves without notice, if you use their service, you agree at any time.
When I wrote that they do what they want w your network, this is what I’m referring to; idk about the “settings”, more like selling access to your residential line (perhaps to other VPN customers)
I mean pretty much everyone I know uses web browsers and sometimes type in web addresses lol
You seem a little out of touch with how people think.
I doubt they’re thinking at all if writing a web address is too much lol
“Facebook dot what? Stop the tech speak, nerd!”
Then, you are completely out of touch with how most people use computers.
And yet most people will just type “facebook” into the omnibar in their browser and click the first result that google gives them.
Yes… A LOT, and I do mean a significantly plurality… have no fucking clue what a URL is.
Excuse me, I thought the comment I replied to was talking about the setup process of the jellyfin server itself.
Well yeah maybe that too, but a server no one connects to is a paperweight. The connection part confuses laypeople
I mean, even in that regard, I did not find it that hard, but I do have a domain.
As I said, most people don’t have that nor do they want to set it up.
Setting up a server? Pretty darn easy.
Teaching all your friends and relatives to figure out what app to use and login with your dyndns random entry or IP address. Or even more difficult, using VPN.
It’s not the hosting that’s hard. It’s the watching for non-tech people.
Maybe I’m just callous but I just don’t see that as a problem myself. If I’m offering my own self hosted services for friends or family, the least they can do is put in some effort to learn how to use it. If they couldn’t bother, that is their loss.
If people operate a car, the least they could do is learn how to change their brakes or do an oil change.
To most non-tech people, that’s the level of complexity you’re expecting them to adhere to.
That is a very strange equivocation to make and not at all like what I said. But if I did give someone a free car, yes I would expect them to take care of it. And if they don’t, and the car breaks, then yes that is also their loss.
We’re here in the plex bashing thread
“Grab an app called jellyfin, type in this number, pick the profile with your name, password is X”
It’s not that different than “Grab an app called plex, here’s the username and password, pick the profile with your name” (or sign up yourself and I’ll share it with you)
For me it’s a trade-off: yes Plex is less good than Jellyfin from a data/cost perspective. But so far the UI of Plex (which is not perfect mind you), availability of Plexamp (which honestly is very very good), and the fact that I don’t have to pay for it anymore after buying lifetime swings the scale towards Plex for me.
If Plex somehow canceled my lifetime or forced ads on my shows or something, that would be a line — but making me opt out of selling my data is not that line for me.
Different taste on the UI front I guess. I thought the default Plex was awful, couldn’t stand it. Jellyfin can be a bit messy though
Plexamp is pretty great. It’s my streaming music player of choice.
After gpm shit the bed… I vowed to never have another streaming music service.
Plexamp it is.
As I said, I’ve yet to find a selfhosting solution half as good as PlexAmp. It’s very, very good and arguably a better service than normal Plex
The closest thing I’ve found to Plexamp (on Android) is Symphonium. I only pointed it to my Plex server, but it offers support to so many other services. It also works perfect in Android Audio. It does cost $4, but it’s honestly worth that and then some.
But I totally get how great Plexamp is. I use it every day.
Thirded on both your points.
Maybe you’ve tried it already, but navidrome is a great purpose built music streamer. I was using subsonic back in the day, then airsonic, then airsonic advanced. When I first got on navidrome it was a tough pill to swallow since I never maintained my tags, but I gave a little time here and there to comb through it and in the end it feels like a worthwhile investment. It paid off a little bit more when I adopted lyrion music server and squeeze players for local playback around the home since this organizes by the same tags (mostly), so the whole library is kind of plug and play with things that honor the same tags.
Who downvoted you?
Anyway, if you have directory-based music organization, Navidrome won’t take that, sadly. However, it will take m3u playlists.
So I can just
ls playlistdir/* > Playlist.m3uand get that directory as a playlist. Simple, lazy solution.Oh, you can also add internet radios to Navidrome.
And one cool trick, which is also pretty good to test out Navidrome without effort, in Termux it is already in the repos, so you can just effort-free
apt install navidrome, run it and play around.Privacy
Notable config:
EnableInsightCollector = 'false'https://www.navidrome.org/docs/getting-started/insights/
Yeah that was the tough pill to swallow, moving away from folder based (the old *sonic gang) to tag based navidrome. Not for everyone, but getting your tags in order opens up some nice doors.
They publish a container image as part of their releases, and you can manage everything with environment variables. If you’re used to running containers I’d say this is even easier for testing and playing around.
For me it’s chromecast support. Maybe Jellyfin has that now but it didn’t last time I checked.
When did you check? I’ve been using it that way for over a year.
I just use Jellyfin for this too, not sure I follow the issue but I haven’t used Plex since migrating
“still even mentions plex”
I’ve been using plex for a LONG time, and bought a lifetime plexpass 12 years ago. I’m pretty sure I haven’t started a thread on Lemmy regarding Plex, but I’m sure I’m not alone as a LONG TIME user. Plex just works for me and cost me $75 in 2013. Right now I’ve got no pressing reason to switch.
If they remove my plexpass features, or start showing me ads / making my user experience worse, then I’ll probably look to change, and won’t participate in these awful ‘plex’ posts.
P.S. we should encourage as much new content on Lemmy as possible if you ask me.
Same with me, 12 years, about $70, and it still works just as well as ever. I turn off any new features I don’t want, my friends and family can still stream from me for free since I have plex pass already, and it’s easy to share without having to pass around my IP address.
Same. I bought the lifetime pass on sale many years ago, my setup is still working fine without me having to have touched it for at least the past 3 years outside of applying an update from time to time. I don’t stream their free shows or movies and have those setup so that they don’t even show up as an option on my tv.
Do I wish it was still the same company it was a decade ago? Of course… but so far they haven’t impacted my experience to the point that I feel the need to replace it with something else. The second that happens I will be spinning up Jellyfin.
Plex was the reason why I learned Docker + watchtower, so that I wouldn’t have to worry about updates (work smarter not harder). Now I have like 35 containers and am comfortable with docker. 🐳
Yep, exactly, when they screw me I’ll leave
Another longtime user here. If you haven’t already, you might want to disable autoupdates on all your devices. The “new experience” is not without its controversies.
Yeah, first thing I did after testing the new app. Still don’t know why they feel the need to push this out so aggressively instead of letting it run in parallel until its ready
Until jellyfin adds better user log in plex will still thrive. I do the self hosting I don’t want a call every few days about they can’t log in. The one click Gmail login with plex is amazing.
I don’t share videos with people using google to log into any site.
The whole anti Google holier than thou is annoying at these levels.
Ok fine, don’t use Google. But telling your friends and loved ones to switch email providers over your crusade is worse than vegans telling you about their diet.
I’m all for kicking Google to the curb. I’m not for shoving my beliefs down other people’s throats.
It’s not “shoving my beliefs down other people’s throats” telling them that these are the options for signing in the service I’m hosting
Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ?
No ma’am, this is a Wendys drive thru.
But really, I think you misunderstood the intended inference from OP, it has nothing to do with email and everything to do with data collection, algorithms, and not quite fair use media access that get’s logged to Google (a third party) ad infinitum.
I don’t know that Google gets to log your access in that scenario, Plex is just using their login system.
Plex sure does know, though, whether you log in via Google or not, so “I don’t share videos using google to log in” is still a bit of a weird statement and not the reason you’d be worried about your piracy habits.
Incidentally, if a friend or family member is hosting a service and “tells me these are the options to sign in to the service I’m hosting” I’d tell them to go away, which is something my own relatives have done to me a bunch when my proposed self-hosted alternative isn’t perfectly smooth and just as convenient as the corpo alternative.
Not surprisingly, the only two selfhosted things my family has ever used are Plex and Home Assistant.
Come on, you’ve got a password manager that saves passwords and usernames. It couldn’t be more convenient to login.
Why would you give the responsibility to google for your logins?
Why would you lock yourself into the vendor google by using their login system for every other service? You can’t migrate anywhere easily.
I’m just not enabling such a method. It’s not implemented. People who don’t think about it and hence don’t care usually still use the service eveb if they cannot use “login with google”
Huh? Google would, at a minimum, know what service is requesting authentication, and plex would know which google user account is being used to authenticate. Maybe they hash that information, but why would anyone trust that? Even if you’re not breaking any laws with what you’re hosting on your plex account, I totally understand why someone might not like the idea of google or plex having data about the identities of users accessing your server and what services are being run from it.
What
:)
Agreed. I have a dozen or so people using my Plex. There is no conceivable way I’m going to get my less tech literate friends and family to use jellyfin, much less am I going to find a way to set it up for remote access with my limited knowledge. Plex is just too convenient right now.
All of my less tech literate friends are getting a warning to abandon their computers entirely.
Ok but there are a million SSO options out there - just because someone doesn’t want to allow google as a SSO provider doesn’t mean they’re telling anyone they have to switch fucking email services.
If you want a remote service to handle your authentication you don’t have to use google. I feel like that’s something I shouldn’t have to point out in a self-hosting community on an open-source and federated social media platform.
I’m vegan and it’s my diet!
Hello vegan, I’m vegan as well
Hello vegan, I’m vegan as well as well
Hello vegan, I’m dad.
It has nothing to do with email
It’s not a personal crusade. Everyone should be trying to get people away from Google. They are an absolutely fucked corporation who makes a fortune spying on you and everyone you know.
ITT: bunch of nerds with literally no friends or family to share media with lol
So you don’t do a lot of tech support. Nice.
Damn, I was with you until the unnecessary vegan bashing.
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i dont get this… im technically still usin emby, but user management is beyond simple and requirs no upkeep. no one has asked me to reset their passwords and ive got a few dozen people usin my instance.
Not forgetting Emby allows either a local or a federated account!
You can install a plugin to add SSO.
https://github.com/9p4/jellyfin-plugin-sso
Did you notice that they’re using a local connection? Still requires VPN/reverse proxy to get it outside the home.
They didn’t mention it in the post I reacted to.
But both of your suggestions are excellent solutions to the problem.
Sounds more of an user problem than a jellyfin problem? If they can’t remember their login I’ll just not add them to jellyfin.
And this is why people use Plex.
I mean, all joking aside, I wish FOSS alternatives paid enough attention to UX and didn’t unironically run on this sort of mentality, because I do want good open source alternatives I can use without getting annoyed or having the other people I’m trying to give access telling me that they’re actually just gonna use the other thing if you don’t mind.
The overall vast majority of everyone is completely tech illiterate. We can blame them for their lack of tech skills all we want but that won’t change anything. Jellyfin needs a better UX before it’s feasible to use over Plex when sharing libraries with other users.
Conversely, the average FOSS programmer has no idea how to either design for simplicity or document for the novice.
Yeah, being a novice in the FOSS scene can be extremely frustrating sometimes. It can very easily start feeling like you’re reading documentation for a plumbus, where every single sentence seems to introduce a new term you’re unfamiliar with. And it often assumes you’re already intimately familiar with how these new terms work. So even just reading the documentation for one specific thing often means having fifty different tabs open, as you also have to read documentation about a ton of dependencies or terms.
I actually think most of them do, it’s just that the simple designs aren’t universal enough to gain much traction in a FOSS community.
Let’s not act like a user and password is some revolutionary new technical concept. They can remember it for their email provider if they can access the plex link. So why not jellyfin? I think the UX of Jellyfin is more than acceptable in this regard. Sure I wouldn’t mind they added this feature but i don’t see it as a must have.
I can tell you right now that something like a username and password is exceptionally difficult for most users. Many just have one password for every single application and if they need to use a different email or password, they will be stuck.
The vast overwhelming majority of users do not have password managers, do not know they exist, and will give up at the first sign of complexity. You’re too far into the weeds if you don’t conceptualize this.
Yeah, but since you basically need a VPN to share Jellyfin safely, you now also need to install and maintain that on their end
Username, password, and URL* Also the majority of users will be on a tv, where typing that in is a huge pain. Plex’s centralized auth makes it trivial to link with a browser or app on their phone so they can login.
Jellyfin has a sign in through the app for tv. Which I tell them to use first. And URL is also nothing new. All this stuff are 30+ year old concepts by now. But to each his own!
I’m starting to think it acts as a nice filter. If they can’t grasp an URL + login, it would save me from tech support down the line.
I have atleast a dozen family members on mine that are more than double the age that 30+ year concept that don’t and never will manage to understand it. You can keep complaining about your own marginal effort, and I will keep preventing hundreds of dollars a month of wasted money by the people I love :)
URL into bookmark, username and password onto paper. Dont tell me they can’t do handwriting anymore.
TV? how did they log into their google account to begin with?
but also: they can log in first on the phone or anywhere else, then use quick connect for the TV… added bonus: phone is now a remote.
@Decq @Jimmycakes ehh helping people every 6 months of so since they forgot their password. Isn’t that bad. I have 10 users and have had to tell people their password maybe four times over four years. Not that bad.
Well yes I know, but that kind of proofs a sign in link is not that important right? :) surely not a deal breaker as they postulated above.
Exactly, we dont add them to jellyfin, we add them to plex because its easier for them lol.
Fair enough, i just have very limited patience for incompetence. if they cant figure out how to remember their user and password. I don’t want to have to deal with them at all.
Cool story bro you’re such a big man telling grandma she’s cut off. Tough guy over here. Absolute unit of a guy.
@Jimmycakes @Selfhoster1728 they learn pretty fast and the calls stop. Everyone says it’s hard I have very tech illerate people using it and yes I get some calls but not alot. And they managed to login way easier then I thought. I think everyone is overblowing how hard Jellyfin is. I mean most people know how to login to a website.
I think most of the people complaining about jellyfin being difficult either haven’t tried it for at least a year or are trying to use it alongside their plex service without knowing how to configure them properly.
Which is fair, I just didn’t realize how many people were using plex that didn’t have an interest in learning remote service deployment.
My family/friends uses it on TV all they do is scan the qr code on plex and it logs them in and basically keeps them logged in forever. On jellyfin it logs out randomly. I run a dedicated Nas with 40tb half filled with media. I started on jellyfin and switched over to plex and never looked back. Just the fact that half the people in my replies think the main use case is on a Pc tells you everything you need to know. It’s perfectly fine for tech literate people for everyone else plex is superior.
I would not let anyone access my self hosted stuff who is not using a password manager and secure passwords.
I’m actually fascinated/frightened by the number of people here who are apparently comfortable running an exposed remote service on their personal network without enough tech knowledge to manage user auth themselves or maintain a stack with shared volumes…
Also the people that know how to set that all up and still expose a Jellyfin server to the public internet
I think most of the reason people are using Plex is that they don’t have to expose services. Plex handles all the nat traversal and whatnot for them.
Tailscale
I will not make myself the tech guy for half my friends and family, just because I can’t share Jellyfin safely without a vpn
That’s fair but tailscale isn’t a traditional vpn, it makes direct connections between two devices. it was also designed to be extremely easy to setup and it’s free for up to 100 devices.
Again it’s fair if you don’t want to mess with it
The overhead of the live library upkeep on Jellyfin is also quite insane, at least for me. I’m talking taking the whole thing down for many minutes at a time for every other service trying to run on the same machine bad.
What on earth does this even mean?
I’ve never had to take jf down while managing the library.
It means my last attempt to set up a Jellyfin server on the same machine where Plex is running fine ended up with any changes to my library bringing the entire thing to a grinding halt while Jellyfin tried to parse my media library again.
It may have gotten better over time, but a quick search showed me I wasn’t alone in seeing that happen and I was already checked out due to all the other annoyances at that point, so I didn’t keep it running longer to see if it went back to semi-acceptable levels later.
It may have been a bug or a config issue, but the point is it absolutely happened to me.
That’s absolutely a config issue.
OK, so why can I mess up a config so that the whole thing grinds to a halt?
Plus, I’m not so sure. A bunch of the people I saw mentioning the same thing did so on bug reports that seemed unattended. It’s not like I had a byzantine deployment, all the thing was doing was parse library files held in a given location. I installed the software, pointed it to a location and all I ever touched afterwards were the files on the library folders.
I will opt out of a LOT of things on Plex before I troubleshoot that situation, I can tell you that.
I actually can’t tell if this is facetious or serious. There are a couple hundred (if not thousand) configuration options or reasons why your chosen setup might have caused the problem you’re describing - it isn’t really up to the developer to anticipate how every individual user has configured their home server, with every other application that might be sharing the same environment. It might have even been the plex service that was causing the issue.
I ran jellyfin and plex on the same library and machine for probably a year before migrating completely away from plex without any issues, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t have to read a bit of the documentation to get the config right.
Fair enough, managing your own home server isn’t for everyone.
Yes, it is.
People keep answering the question of “why would anybody still use Plex” in this thread much better than I ever could.
Also, “it works on my machine” doesn’t mean it’s not a bug or a legitimate performance issue inherent to the software. It’s always crazy to me how holier-than-thou, not-the-developer’s-job people can get without heeding even the most basic, ground-level software development principles.
Also, also, spare me the condescension, I self-host a dozen different things, including other open source libraries for non-video stuff, closed source libraries for other other non-video stuff and increasingly more-trouble-than-it’s-worth networking.
But even if I didn’t, Plex was one of the first things I hosted because all you have to do is installing like you would any local application and it just works. By the time it’s living in a contianer inside a dedicated home server or whatever you are well past the entry level for this stuff. If that’s the gap you find acceptable between Plex and Jellyfin you have, again, found your answer to why a whole bunch of people would consider one and not the other.
I just don’t think you need to make your whole personality about your pet home server or that it needs to be finicky and annoying to work. Self hosting has tons of potential and it’s one of the few areas where open source solutions dominate the field. Somebody should take some time to make it actually accessible before the commercial hounds smell blood in the enshittified waters and turn it into a product all the way.
Kudos to Home Assistant for soooort of doing that, although I still think it’s a bit overcustomizable and overengineered. Still the closest to a good self-hosted open application out there by a mile, though.
I have no clue what you mean with having to take it down. But with the *narr stack and jellyseer i basically have no library upkeep. Except for one or two difficult shows
Huh? Like just sitting there?
Or is it running a heavy background task like trickplay generation? You can disable trickplay (scrobbling previews) if your system isn’t beefy enough to keep up with them.
I run video game servers on my system, and while stream transcodes used to interfere with them, even that was fixed my assigning JF and the games to run on separate CPU cores.
I don’t know how people who have gone through the trouble of self hosting and have taken all the time to learn how all of this works still don’t understand that most people are not capable of using Jellyfin and/or do not have the desire to learn how to do it. It’s not turnkey, not by a longshot. Plex is. That’s the reason. If jellyfish were even remotely as easy as Plex, then Plex wouldn’t be so popular.
You may as well tell everyone to learn how to change the oil in their cars and lecture them about that, or tell people to always make a home cooked meal instead of going out to dinner. Some people are just going to pay for the convenience.
Anyone who has used jellyfish knows that it is no trivial matter getting it working outside of your network, especially for other people. I can set up a Plex server at somebody’s house in like 30 minutes and get anybody streaming on their devices in half that time. They don’t even compare when it comes to setup and ease of use.
Edit: I’d like to also add that the only people talking about plex on lemmy are people complaining about plex users. I see more whining and complaining about it here than I see it ever mentioned anywhere else in my life. Some of y’all are so fucking pretentious about this. Plex was a critical first step for me into the world of self hosting.
Let me ask y’all this: how many of you still use Google in some form? Because that is exponentially worse than Plex.
I don’t mean to diminish your comment, but I just went through the setup process for both Plex and jellyfin (moving to new hardware) and there was no significant difference between the setups.
Maybe this wasn’t the case a few years ago, but jellyfin is just a setup, point to libraries, and enable hardware accel.
Have you set up jellyfin to play outside of your home network?
Have you set it up for somebody else to play it outside of your home network?
As I said in another comment, getting it to just serve your media on your home network to your devices yeah, that’s not really a big deal. The moment you do anything beyond that it starts getting far more complicated and less turnkey than Plex
Yep. My son lives in another city and uses my jellyfin server. Actually since yesterday, because Plex stopped allowing him to watch remotely.
So you’ve used both and you’re going to tell me that getting him working on Jellyfin outside of your network was just as easy as Plex?
Remote didn’t “stop working.” They’re charging for it. I think it’s shitty, but don’t act like it’s broken.
Frankly I think you’re just lying at this point or at least exaggerating. Plex has many cons but the reason its persists is largely how easy it is to set up.
Sorry, I meant “Plex took away free remote streaming”.
You’re being really, really snippy. Either have a coffee or take a breather, but calling strangers liars is way offside.
I’m not lying, I can show you my Fw config. My son called me yesterday saying he couldn’t watch Plex, something about the Plex pass. I just changed the Fw rule DST nat mangle port and told him to use jellyfin. The user is local, so that’s dead easy. Done in 10 minutes.
And yes, most users don’t have this kind of experience, granted. But Plex comes with its own stupidities, like in 2020 when my wife had to pay $5 for the Plex app so she could access our library. Or the exercise of sharing libraries if you don’t have a Plex pass, which is a real pain.
But that wasn’t my point. I was trying to relay that jellyfin isn’t as buggy and difficult as a lot of self hosters claim.
I don’t mean to add fuel to the fire with Gentry or anything but I can speak towards my experience with jellyfin here. When I started with jellyfin I didn’t know a lot about networking or even self hosting, I pretty much jumped in blind. Although it’s fair to say I am not new to technical concepts/troubleshooting so my experience is definitely going to be smoother than a non technical user.
For context I am using truenas scale to host jellyfin and I was able to install it, configure it, and get my library going on the first try and it was definitely under 20 minutes. Once I decided I wanted remote access to my library it wasn’t super crazy to figure out tail scale (maybe 30 minutes?) and have that available too. It might not have been under an hour total but coming from almost nothing as a newer user I didn’t really experience a lot of turbulence.
That’s valid.
When I first got whiffs of Plex becoming not-so-great, (maybe 3 years ago?) I struggled to get jellyfin up and running. It felt less polished.
But as of last month when I recently installed JF in an incus container, it has come a long way. Very easy setup.
Are you also a fellow MikroTik/RouterOS user?
Haha, yes I am. I think I’m on my 8th year moving on from pfsense, still rocking the rb4011.
Learning curve is something else, but mikrotik just sits there and works.
I don’t appreciate the “calm down” portion of your comment, however yes I am getting irritated and I’m probably just going to stop responding to people. I have made my point. How folks don’t understand why people use Plex is beyond me, but either you get it or you don’t. Have a good one
Well, I didn’t appreciate your “frankly I think you’re lying” comment, so I guess we’re even.
My Jellyfin tunnels via traefik and cloudflared. However, the normal Android app somehow can’t login, but streamyfin works like a charm. I always had issues with plex, because it relied on their own service. But jellyfin now simply works, pretty nifty
Yeah let’s get the average person who runs plex using traefik and cloudflare and tell them “it simply works” lol come on man
I mean, if they don’t want to learn, there is always netflix, prime, Disney +.
Or stay with plex, no shade.
Or you take an afternoon and build something cool like this.
Those services are not the same. I can’t load my own media onto Disney+. How is this even a real argument?
Plex is best understood as an intermediate step. You get something akin to your own personal Netflix/Spotify, but you get to host your own files. There are pros and cons to this.
If I had not first used Plex, I wouldn’t be where I am now. It’s like training wheels. Some people never learn how to ride a bike fully, and that’s OK. But this community is about self hosting and yet all we do is whine about people who aren’t diving into the deep end. How about we just focus on hosting shit ourselves? All I hear these days is Plex Plex Plex and how dumb people are for using Plex. I use jellyfin and Plex. Plex exists for my low headache needs with my less tech savvy friends and family. I completely understand why some people use it.
what? It’s not like everyone needs to run jellyfin at home. the only thing you need to use is the jellyfin webapp, which I don’t understand how is it more complicated than netflix or any other similar service. you log in, pick a movie and hit play. that’s it.
Have you set up jellyfish at your home, given access to a friend outside of your network who could not setup Jellyfin themselves, and successfully got them playing on their TV, table tablet, and/or phone? Have you been able to set them up without them having to call you every week?
If you have used Plex and jellyfin then you know that configuring the two are wildly different beasts. Setting it up within your own home network just for yourself? The gap is a little bit smaller. Anything beyond that becomes a much biggerdeal.
Yes. It’s very easy. It might not have used to be easy but it is for the last couple of years. Dead simple. About a dozen people use my Jellyfin server across TV’s, phones, tablets, laptops. None of them are what I would call techies. It’s as simple for them as Netflix.
If you have not set up a VPN for accessing your Jellyfin, I would suggest looking into the myriad of security issues the Jellyfin Backend has. Jellyfin has no business being accessible from the public internet
Jellyfin is basically as easy to use as plex within the same network. I’ve set up both dueing the past 6 months. The only big difference is that Jellyfin is much more of a pain to work through port forwarding.
Pretty limited usecase man
Plex never worked outside my network so I’m not worried about that on Jellyfin
I’ll switch to jellyfin as soon as it works nearly as well.
But for the moment it’s missing a lot of features compared to Plex.
I would switch in a heartbeat if Jellyfin didn’t… kinda suck, honestly.
But the difference in usability is enough that it’s just not an option.
For the record, I updated Plex today and I haven’t seen a notification like this anywhere, although that text snippet does match their privacy policy ad data opt-in settings blurb that has been in place for a while. I may need a bit more context here.
Only issues I’ve had with Jellyfin are reduced flexibility in naming/organizing files and inability (for me at least) to detect personal media.
i manage all files and metadata outside of jellyfin/kodi using mediaelch… it scrapes, renames and sets up all the local metadata files for ingestion perfectly into both my media services.
I’ll say that not having to do that is a major postiive. One of the UX things that bounced me off of jellyfin was ending up with a reconfigured library. The correct UX choice is for the software to adapt to your preexisting library, not having to rebuild it all with a different set of information files and naming conventions.
That is a BIG deal when you have a big library. Also why I hate Calibre. Screw Calibre.
There should be a library type called “Home videos and photos” for that.
I probably made a small mistake in setting that up but I tried making the dedicated “home movies” folder and it wouldn’t show my videos.
There is that. Remote access is a pain to set up and maintain, and I had some significant performance issues with library scraping, too. The interface is also kind of a mess, particularly if you want to bolt on more than just a video library.
@BrianTheeBiscuiteer @MudMan might I suggest FileBot - just a few bucks but it curates your schtuff and can rename, sort and collate everything in Jellyfin form automagically using imdb and other dbs.
So integrate it in Jellyfin.
I don’t want five additional pieces of software to fix Jellyfin’s shortcomings, I want it to work.
Mind you, there are still edge cases in Plex, and the renaming dance can still be annoying, but still, it’s one thing to have classic Doctor Who DVDs be an alien artifact no software can process and another to have to install additional software to masticate things for Jellyfin on a task that is fundamental to the thing it’s supposed to be doing.
Also, I don’t want my stuff to be curated and renamed. My library is fine as it is. Part of the annoyance is for software to insist on moving crap around. I know what I have, where I have it and it’s all rationally named. It’s on the software to parse it.
To be clear, I think you’re being friendly and useful, it’s just that I’m frustrated by the pattern of helpful users and additional software creating this cluster of self-connected software spaghetti to address UX faults that are fundamental but OSS devs like to ignore indefinitely.
Jellyfins UI being only mouse based is garbage. Using it on Xbox for instance is terrible. Using it outside of the house is also a pain in the ass.
What’s actually bad about it?
Like, this is something you opt into and is only relevant if you’re watching their ad supported stuff, which I don’t know anyone who watches that over their own media on Plex.
And honestly, every “bad” thing I’ve ever heard about Plex has been the same thing, something that sounds horrible until you understand it
Because Jellyfin users like to feel superior. Accepting that other people have other requirements from software is hard, especially when you feel like you choice is the only valid one.
As a long time Plex user, who has a Jellyfin running in parallel, just not shared, I will keep using Plex until they either force me off of it or Jellyfin manages to make accessing servers remotely easier and more secure.
I completely agree. I thought Plex would be fast in the collective rearview mirror as soon as they started forcing connections to their servers, pay-walling, etc. I also had issues with the database corrupting and causing huge slowdowns. I spent days trying and failing to preserve my ratings, watch data, etc.
In the end, I switched to a much simpler setup of an NFS/CIFS share accessed by Kodi on my Nvidia Shield TV. If Kodi chokes (happened once since 2017), I can just wipe the app and/or reinstall and then import the local metadata (XML or NFO IIRC). That takes about five minutes. It just works. Kodi also gives me access to the IAGL, so that’s a huge plus.
I have Plex running alongside Jellyfin.
When transcoding video, Plex uses an extra 5 watts of power. Jellyfin uses an extra 55 watts.
Jellyfin also has security holes for accessing videos via URL without being authenticated.
I don’t feel like Jellyfin is ready for being exposed to the internet.
Probably because it works well, and has working clients on everything at this point. For some, a one-time fee was worth it when it was cheaper.
Sharing is also easier, as your friends just sign up to a plex account and you share your library with them. No need to send them an ip address and port, or fqdn that you have to maintain if your isp changes your ip address. It has its benefits, tbh, and the core sharing features still work for streaming. All the extra crap you can just turn off.
That why I think its still popular.
Because this is the selfhosted community, not the FOSS community. There is some overlap, but they are different. There are many reasons to not use Plex, it not being free and open source are not among them.
There’s no jellyfin app on my TV.
It’s already setup, and a lack of motivation/time/energy/urgency to make the change…
I host a Plex server for close to 70 friends and family members, from multiple parts of the world. I have over 60TBs of movies, tv shows, anime, anime movies, and flac music, and everyone can connect directly to my server via my reverse proxy and my public IPs. This works on their phones, their tvs, their tablets and PCs. I have people of all ages using my server, from very young kids to very old grandparents of friends. I have friends who share their accounts with their families, meaning I probably have already hit 100+ people using my server. Everyone is able to request whatever they want through overseerr with their Plex account, and everything shows up pretty instantly as soon as it is found and downloaded. It works almost flawlessly, whether locally or remotely, from anywhere in the world. I myself don’t even reside in the same home that my Plex server resides. I paid for my lifetime pass over 10 years ago.
Can you guarantee that I can move over to jellyfin and that every single person currently using my Plex server will continue having the same level of experience and quality of life that they’re having with my Plex server currently? Because if you can’t, you just answered your own question. Sometimes we self host things for ourselves and we can deal with some pains, but sometimes we require something that works for more people than just us, and that’s when we have to make compromises. Plex is not perfect, and is actively becoming enshittified, but I can’t simply dump it and replace it with something very much meant for local or single person use rather than actively serving tens to hundreds of people off a server built with OTC components.
It’s not fair to characterize jellyfin as being unable to scale, and it’s just downright wrong to cast it as being built “for one single local user”.
Jellyfin has great support for setups that include numerous users. The entire dashboard is basically designed around this concept of an admin keeping track of dozens upon dozens of users.
You seem like you have many reservations about specific functions in Jellyfin, but you were vague in explaining thrm - what specific things are you worried about?
Can I guarantee? There are no guarantees in self hosting. By this logic you can never move away from Plex. There’s always unknowns. There’s always new issues to trip over. Plex is hardly without it’s own warts, but because they’re ‘known’ to you and your users nothing else will ever be able to measure up.
It’s a logical fallacy and a trap.
I set up Jellyfin basically overnight when the Plex pass changes occurred. Reverse proxies are trivial, as are docker containers, don’t let the anecdotes about things being hard or VPN being needed intimidate you.
There were absolutely bumps in the road. I had to make users for each person and email them customized sign-up links. Yes, that kinda sucked, but that’s the price for running and controlling the authentication yourself instead of though a 3rd party service that can and absolutely will eventually use that data to snoop.
Most of the time, once sent the link the users were fine, 9/10 of my users had no further issues and quickly adapted. For the last 1/10, I had to trouble shoot a few things and eventually ended up recommending a different device to connect with (it was an old TV with a really old version of Plex for TVs, they ended up buying a $40 Google TV device from Walmart and got set up that way).
The whole time I was running both Plex and Jellyfin so the migration process could happen at my speed.
My point is this: no, it wasn’t painless to switch. Yes, some tech support was required. Yes, the user who was getting hundreds of dollars (annually) of streaming services effectively for free had to shell out a paltry sum to upgrade and actually enjoys their experience much more now. No, that didn’t make it impossible or not worth doing.
I’m not saying what’s best for you and your users, and I’m absolutely not guaranteeing you’ll have no issues beyond these, but I hope you understand your hands aren’t actually tied, you’re just boxing yourself in.
That’s just the nature of service migration; of course for people like you who are very dependent on it, it’s not a no-brainer, but for anyone who wants to start hosting one of the two, yes it will be.
In your case yes Plex is more appropriate but at the same time the clock is ticking for Plex if they continue on this route…
The point for me is, that I have an acient synology NAS (ds214play) which acts as my media server. There is a community made plex package which I can install easily. As far as I have seen, there is no way to install jellyfin on this NAS, as it doesn’t support docker
It might be because of security.
https://github.com/jellyfin/jellyfin/issues/5415
Because it works. Call me in a few years when movies, TV shows, dvr recordings, live TV (with free, built-in guide support), and working picture support shows up. Oh, commercial removal too (again, built-in, just check a box). A not-shit setup process would be nice, too.
I’ve tried jf three times now across as many years, and it’s still got that ‘Linux developer feel’ of a tool where the devs got what they need the most mostly-working, and just don’t give a fuck about anything else - or a decent UI. No, blue boxes on a black background is not a decent UI. It wasn’t when W8 launched, and it’s not now. And when W8 is winning the competition, you’ve already lost.
Feature parity or the argument is moot.
I don’t use either service. Do they serve the same purpose?
I don’t know why people use dishwashers. It’s in the kitchen. A lawn mower is a no brainer, yet people still use dishwashers??
My TV doesn’t have a Jellyfin app, only a Plex app. I’m not buying a new TV just to use my preferred media server, sadly :-(
This is why you shouldn’t use the built-in TV OS. Use an Apple TV, Nvidia Shield, fire stick if you’re fine with ads, a tiny NUC would work, maybe a raspberry Pi although idk about that one.
You can cast jellyfin to any receiver. I use a Chromecast.
Hearing people think they need an app just to use their TV as a TV is painful.
Can’t access remote unless u setup port forwarding, NAT rule etc etc. Too much work with jelly bin, plus it looks like 1990s UI created by illegal IPTV distributors