See, if you do have a bit of knowledge on current catholic church politics and pick up of some clues early on in the movie you can definitely see the ending coming. It’s not unguessable.
Which part of the ending can you see coming? The person who ends up being pope, I predicted based purely on narrative structure right from the beginning. The twist after he becomes pope? I never would have called it, so I’d love to know what the early clues are to that.
Personally, I wouldn’t have minded the ending if it hadn’t felt so rushed.
Spoilers
Going from the Mexican guy having like 5 votes in the previous vote to the bombing and his relatively under-written speech (to its credit!), to suddenly he wins the next vote. I had expected him to have a very good showing in the next vote, then some more politicking, and then win a final vote. Had they gone for a bigger speech in that theatre, and risked over-writing it, maybe then his sudden win would have felt more earnt. But the way they went with it felt incredibly rushed.
Once the twist of him being intersex was revealed, I had expecting to see some fallout of that in the denouement. Instead, there just…wasn’t a denouement. Which just added to how rushed it all felt.
Yeah the person was predictable based on the narrative structure.
Regarding the final twist
Iirc Lawrence gets tipped off at some point about Benitez’ secretive, papal-approved medical treatment that he then cancelled instead of going through with it. I kept thinking about what it could be, and while I didn’t predict the twist completely my mind did wander into that direction. Mainly because it became quite clear to me that this story would pull every possible scenario that a conclave could have, and with the current church discussions regarding the role of women I thought he would turn out to be trans. Which I’m happy they did not do and rather chose a much much more believable and realistic story of a biological inter person who doesn’t even find out he’s not biological male for decades.
Ah interesting. I noticed those hints, but thought they were going in a different direction.
Spoilers
Given all the talk about other bishop’s illicit personal relationships, I was wondering if he had gotten a woman pregnant and she then got an abortion.
But I agree with you strongly re trans vs intersex. It would have been much less believable for the Catholic Church to embrace, even unknowingly, an AFAB trans man as pope than AMAB intersex.
I’d push back a bit at your characterisation of him as “not biological male” though. Intersex people like Benitez do a good job of demonstrating why exactly the position held by some people (especially transphobes trying to make a biological deterministic argument) that even if gender might be complicated, sex is a binary, is untrue. Between chromosomes, gonads, genitals, gametes produced, hormones produced, hormone receptors, and secondary sexual characteristics, it’s pretty clear that sex is too complicated to accurately talk about whether someone actually “is” or is not male. We know explicitly that he had female gonads, male genitals, and male secondary sexual characteristics. Which certainly implies a more male-like hormone production and/or reception. Personally I wouldn’t say that Benitez “is a biological male”, but nor would I confidently assert that he “isn’t a biological male”.
Absolutely, my phrasing in calling him “not biologically male” was due to me not speaking English as a first language and not being sure how to phrase it correctly
End was odd. Such a good mystery and intrigue movie and the end just wasn’t. I dislike “out of the blue” things you can’t see coming.
See, if you do have a bit of knowledge on current catholic church politics and pick up of some clues early on in the movie you can definitely see the ending coming. It’s not unguessable.
Which part of the ending can you see coming? The person who ends up being pope, I predicted based purely on narrative structure right from the beginning. The twist after he becomes pope? I never would have called it, so I’d love to know what the early clues are to that.
Personally, I wouldn’t have minded the ending if it hadn’t felt so rushed.
Spoilers
Going from the Mexican guy having like 5 votes in the previous vote to the bombing and his relatively under-written speech (to its credit!), to suddenly he wins the next vote. I had expected him to have a very good showing in the next vote, then some more politicking, and then win a final vote. Had they gone for a bigger speech in that theatre, and risked over-writing it, maybe then his sudden win would have felt more earnt. But the way they went with it felt incredibly rushed.
Once the twist of him being intersex was revealed, I had expecting to see some fallout of that in the denouement. Instead, there just…wasn’t a denouement. Which just added to how rushed it all felt.
Yeah the person was predictable based on the narrative structure.
Regarding the final twist
Iirc Lawrence gets tipped off at some point about Benitez’ secretive, papal-approved medical treatment that he then cancelled instead of going through with it. I kept thinking about what it could be, and while I didn’t predict the twist completely my mind did wander into that direction. Mainly because it became quite clear to me that this story would pull every possible scenario that a conclave could have, and with the current church discussions regarding the role of women I thought he would turn out to be trans. Which I’m happy they did not do and rather chose a much much more believable and realistic story of a biological inter person who doesn’t even find out he’s not biological male for decades.
Ah interesting. I noticed those hints, but thought they were going in a different direction.
Spoilers
Given all the talk about other bishop’s illicit personal relationships, I was wondering if he had gotten a woman pregnant and she then got an abortion.
But I agree with you strongly re trans vs intersex. It would have been much less believable for the Catholic Church to embrace, even unknowingly, an AFAB trans man as pope than AMAB intersex.
I’d push back a bit at your characterisation of him as “not biological male” though. Intersex people like Benitez do a good job of demonstrating why exactly the position held by some people (especially transphobes trying to make a biological deterministic argument) that even if gender might be complicated, sex is a binary, is untrue. Between chromosomes, gonads, genitals, gametes produced, hormones produced, hormone receptors, and secondary sexual characteristics, it’s pretty clear that sex is too complicated to accurately talk about whether someone actually “is” or is not male. We know explicitly that he had female gonads, male genitals, and male secondary sexual characteristics. Which certainly implies a more male-like hormone production and/or reception. Personally I wouldn’t say that Benitez “is a biological male”, but nor would I confidently assert that he “isn’t a biological male”.
spoiler
Absolutely, my phrasing in calling him “not biologically male” was due to me not speaking English as a first language and not being sure how to phrase it correctly